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Views on bi vs pan debate page 2

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lucass_ Bracelet King	3 years, 5 months ago by lucass_ oh bruh u scared me i’m sorry this is random but i saw the notif and i thought i was gonna be a short message and then i saw this paragraph and no joke i was like oh what-
lucass_ Bracelet King	3 years, 5 months ago by lucass_ oh wow. i difnt know that. yeah i can kinda fill it the holes you left for the sake of appropriation. wow that’s insane thanks
Scavenged Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by Scavenged @lucass_ sorry!! theres actually a lot that goes behind that label, and i mean a lot. theres so much that im not allowed to state on here
lucass_ Bracelet King	3 years, 5 months ago by lucass_ oh wow. i get the gist tho. that’s crazy. i thought it was cuz people thought that the label bi was transphobic or enby phobic and so they were like we needa be more inclusive and thus pan was born. i difnt know it was cuz of that...

roundcat Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by roundcat @Scavenged Would it be possible to provide some sources? I've started doing some research on pansexual history myself, and its hard to find objective or neutral sources on the subject. From what I have found: It seems the term started with Sigmund Freud, (yikes) and from there, it was used by many psychiatrist to describe patients who did not fit the sexual norm. Many of the times I've seen it listed in a negative light was from heterosexual reporters or speakers negatively describing someone they deem promiscuous and/or queer . Given the baggage, I understand why someone would not want to identify under the label, but at the same time, there are many terms within the community that are reclaimed words that may have originated with negative definitions, but have evolved to mean something different. Also, I couldn't find anything on the flag's meaning changing. The flag originates from 2010 and was created by Jasper; a nonbinary tumblr user. The colors do mean male/ female/ and everything else, but I could not find a reliable source that claims the yellow means anything other than gender/identity. In fact, given that the other 2 colors on the flag refer to gender/identity, it's a bit of a stretch for yellow's definition to expand beyond that as well. In the Nonbinary flag, the yellow represents people who fall outside the gender binary, similar to the definition of the pansexual flag. These are simply the conclusions of the research I have done so far. Like I said before, I neither claim to be an expert or an authority on the subject, and am willing to learn more and have my perspective changed. Forgive me if I have gotten any details wrong, or if my conclusions are objectively wrong. I can pm the sources I have used in my research upon request, but the majority were literally from the first page of google upon searching for "Pansexual meaning over time" "Pansexual history", and "when was the pansexual flag created?"
Ciao Bracelet King	3 years, 5 months ago by Ciao @Scavenged Do you mind sending me some resources about the history of pan? I would like to learn more about that.
roundcat Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by roundcat Also, I would like to hear the perspective of someone who is Pan/Omni on this debate as well before drawing any conclusions. Seems like I'm not the only in this thread who is new to Bi/Pan/Omni history, or the debates and controversies involved. I would greatly appreciate hearing from all sides of the argument.
allegory Advanced	3 years, 5 months ago by allegory To anyone in this thread looking for sources, I recommend Kravitz M.'s articles on Medium, especially this one: "Pansexuality’s Troubled Past and Present" (you can look it up to find a link). As a bisexual, I don't think bi is transphobic or excludes nonbinary people. People tend to forget that nonbinary isn't a third gender that needs it's own sexuality to be attracted to. Anyone can be attracted to a nonbinary person because nonbinary encompasses an incredibly wide range of experiences. One nonbinary person may be uncomfortable with, say, a gay man being attracted to them, and another nonbinary person might not. Also, most of the bisexual people I know are nonbinary! When pan is used as a "non-transphobic" alternative to bi, this is when things get biphobic, but otherwise I have no issues with the pan label. At their core, bi, pan, and omni all mean the same thing: attraction regardless of gender. There are transphobic cis bi people just like there are transphobic cis pan people, but neither sexuality is "more likely" to be transphobic. We should have more solidarity than hostility. I am open to any sort of debate, messages, and questions, but I may not have time to respond and I may not be able to answer well, sorry!
roundcat Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by roundcat @allegory I've read through that during my initial research, and I'm giving it a thorough look-through this time around as I just skimmed it last time. There's a lot to read and examine from "Pansexuality's Troubled Past and Present". I might be going through it and giving my impressions over the next couple of days. Anyone who wants to examine it as well can find it here. https://aninjusticemag.com/the-history-and-troubling-present-of-the-pansexual-label-9e535e15277 So I've examined some of the example's of his direct quotes he has given to use as his bases for how the historic definition of Pansexualism is problematic, and I have so far gone through the examples he provides throughout the 70s. One thing I noticed is they are all quoted without revealling who said it or what context it was said in. He does provide links to the articles and texts he is quoting from, and here's what I've noticed so far: (1973: “…all my friends had been what I would call pansexual, avoiding the older term bi-sexual, which is meaningless when you can count more than two sexes.”) Quoted from an article from Rampart Magazine: A publication that examined politics and social issues contemporary to the 1960s and 70s with a left leaning point of view. The Article "The Third Sex" is actually an early examination on Nonbinary and Genderqueer identities. Pansexuality is actually mentioned several times throughout the article without a clear definition. One instance being as you see it above, and others being used to describe genderqueer, sexually free, and simply queer. (January 1974: “A psychiatric profile labeled [Alton Coleman] a ‘pansexual, willing to have intercourse with any object … man, woman, child, whatever…’”) A psychiatric diagnosis of a criminal. You can read the chapter for the details but its not for the squeamish. The important point of this example is this is not a queer person using a label to describe how his sexuality works, but rather a cisgender straight gender doctor using the outdated Freudian definition to label a criminal who may not have been queer in the first place. (April 1, 1974: “Whether you call a person who is able to have sex with a male or female bisexual, AC-DC, a switch-hitter, ambisexual, pansexual, omnisexual, or, in Freud’s words, ‘polymorphous perverse,’ his or her sexual persuasion is certainly nothing new.”) An article by the New York Magazine titled "The Bisexuals" by Judy Klemesrud, the article is an examination on feminism and the rise of people identifying as bisexual. This part is basically saying "You know them by many names..." and basically shows that the terms have been used interchangeably for even as far back as the 1970s, notably by heterosexuals looking in on the LGBT+ community. (April 16, 1974: “Going bisexual, are we? It’s a mere beginning, a mere toe‐dipping into the great blue waters of erotica. I know what comes next season. It’s pansexuality. How’s that for loving? Jonquils, lovebirds, trained seals, the whole rich range of our furred and feathered friends.”) This is a quote from a NYtimes article "Ted & Mary & Archie & Fido", from Martha Weinman Lear, a heterosexual writer who is writing about how trendy homosexuality and bisexuality is (huh, tale as old as time) and decides to go down the slippery slope of "if bisexuality and homosexuality are acceptable, why not animals next?" She's not a queer person trying to broaden the definition of Pansexuality, but rather a Heterosexual using Pansexual liberation as a synonym for bestiality. (August 1974: “The prefix ‘pan’ means that you’re open to all kinds of sexual experiences, with all kinds of people. It means an end to restrictions, it means you could relate sexually to any human being…”) From an interview called "Alice Sounds Off!'So What's The Story, Alice? Are You Gay?Are You Straight? Are You Bisexial? Which?!'" Basically the interviewer is interviewing a man who many have assumed is gay, but assures the interviewer that he is straight despite his name and how he carries himself. He at one point begins to muse if he could choose to be any orientation, he would probably go with bisexual. He eventually muses: "Sure - I think in the future everyone will be bisexual. And everything would be so much simpler then - you'd just make love with anyone you liked, and it wouldn't matter what sex they were, and maybe it also wouldn't matter what color they were, or what age, or anything, except that you liked them. (I think that's the juicer quote, but he's talking about bisexuality in that instance). It does continue though, where the interviewee presses: "How did you jump from bisexuality to these factors like race and age?" and that's when Alice says "Well, I actually prefer the concept of pansexuality, rather than bisexuality. The prefix "pan" means that you're open to all kinds of sexual experiences, with all kinds of people. It means an end to restrictions, it means you could relate sexually to any human being, it means and end to unreal limits. I like that idea." What I took away from this article was Alice was a heterosexual man musing on sexual liberation and using terms like Bisexuality and Pansexuality to articulate those feelings, rather than being a queer person who is using either term to describe his sexuality. So given that Kravitz M. is trying to demonstrate the problematic elements about the Pansexual label, he gives us several examples throughout the ages of how it is used, and how these examples could be problematic. However through going through his examples throughout the 70s I've found: -The interchangeability and even rivalry between the Bisexual and Pansexual labels is nothing new. - Heterosexuals have tend to put a perverse definition to it that seems to include bestiality, and other sexual taboos (which is something they have done to other LGBT+ labels since forever) - There aren't nearly enough example's given of LGBT+ people using it for themselves, at least among Kravitz M.'s examples. I think the final point is the crux of how I feel about this research. I feel that the true definition of a LGBT+ label should begin and end with how the person who Identifies as such defines it, not how people outside the community, or especially those hostile to it describe it. I do intend to keep reading through Kravitz M."s examples while continuing to read the article and post my research notes. I'm sure there are better examples, and evidence that better proves his point. At the very least this is has been extremely educational and I'm learning a lot about LGBT+ issues and attitudes throughout the ages by parsing through these articles. I highly recommend others read through these too, though keep in mind there are many outdated terms used throughout them, and they definitely reflect the attitudes of their times. Anyway, gotta go to bed eventually. Feel free to peer review my research as I'm sure I've made some mistakes, and feel free to give me your perspectives and interpretations as well. 😄
allegory Advanced	3 years, 5 months ago by allegory @roundcat Yeah I'd say that's a fair analysis, and you're right. "The true definition of a LGBT+ label should begin and end with how the person who Identifies as such defines it" words it perfectly. In the end it's just language, and language is constantly evolving, so it really doesn't do much to insist people use one label or the other. I don't think I have anything else to add, just that there's nuance in everything, especially identity.
Scavenged Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by Scavenged @lucass_ this is different so don't worry, this is a learning space not anything personal. i'm 100% okay if we speak on here 🙂thats mainly for comments on other posts, friending me, and dming me. this was an open invitation to anyone

Scavenged Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by Scavenged @roundcat i don't claim to be an expert either so don't worry. the term DID start with Freud and then was used for quite some time. tho, i do accept the fact that we reclaim words and slurs (i use the word queer with myself, and use the f word as slang for me, my s/o and in a joking manner with my friends.) i don't agree with the fact of how much was copied, y'know? considering it's original purpose it seems that when you removed all the bad stuff it basically was the bisexual definition (in my eyes, that doesnt make it true) https://www.cnn.com/2016/10/10/health/pansexual-feat/index.html (this includes where i got my quote from) https://aninjusticemag.com/the-history-and-troubling-present-of-the-pansexual-label-9e535e15277 https://kravitzi.medium.com/im-never-really-going-to-understand-people-explaining-why-they-use-the-pansexual-label-in-the-ab6ef911c53c (this is a comment, or a response to a comment that i actually like. here's what i found interesting from it: ) " Bisexuality already encompasses everything pansexuality wants to be, ... , we should acknowledge that attractions have nuances instead of acting like having a preference changes your sexuality, and the assumption that any other sexuality is primarily about “what a person has” is outrageously condescending." a common thing that a lot of pan people do is they'll find people who identify as bi and say "oh, you're pan tho!" i run a professional account on Instagram and in my bio it says that im bi and i've explained my attraction before, and i had 12 requests from people i didnt know all telling me i was actually pan, and 5 from people i knew/dms i had already accepted. i find it to be very toxic. to me, its like saying that theres a new sexuality that files under "lesbian" and it means you only have an attraction to Butch women. thats more of a preference, which is how i see pansexuality and omni. it's basically saying "I don't have a preference" or "i do have a preference, i just see everyone not just 2" thats why i see these as problematic, y'know?
Scavenged Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by Scavenged @Ciao if you look above there's a few i have saved in my foulder, but i'll look for more
lucass_ Bracelet King	3 years, 5 months ago by lucass_ oh alright thanks. i just wanted to make sure that i wasnt invading your boundaries.
Scavenged Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by Scavenged these links im providing go more in depth on the difference or toxicity of the label(s). i don't fully agree with them, but they make some good points https://heckinunicorn.com/blogs/heckin-unicorn-blog/bisexuality-vs-pansexuality-the-war-within-the-lgbtq-community-explained?currency=USD https://www.reddit.com/r/honesttransgender/comments/eqg0hd/pansexuality_is_a_transphobic_unnecessary_label/ https://www.healthline.com/health/bisexual-vs-pansexual#key-difference
Scavenged Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by Scavenged @lucass_ thank you for double checking 😊
roundcat Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by roundcat @Scavenged I'm actually parsing through Kravitz M.'s article right now. Considering the many articles and examples he links, I want to be as thorough as possible while examining his article, so I'm actually going through the past articles first and posting my findings and impressions as I read through. It might take me some time before I have a full opinion on it, and I'm asking for opinions and comments on those findings as well. I take articles of this nature very seriously, especially since as I've seen similar pieces like this put out towards Asexuality and Nonbinary/genderqueer identities. I'm simply just skeptical of exclusion or attempts to divide with the LGBT+ community. Not saying that's what Kravitz M. is trying to do. I think the title may be giving me the wrong idea of his intentions, when he may just be trying to inform. and yeah, no argument here as far as bisexuality's definition. That's why I've always thought of Bisexual, Pansexual, and Omnisexual as interchangeable. Everyone has a different reason for using the term they use. Some like the linguistics better, some feel a stronger connection to a certain term. Some identify with the history of that term. Some might just like the flag colors (the bisexual flag reminds me of wild berry skittles which makes me happy 😊). And yeah, I understand your frustrations with some people within the Pansexual community who try to push the term on you, or attack you for the term you choose. I've definitely faced that myself within the Nonbinary and Asexual communities. (I'm Agender, but because I lean towards masculine outfits, I constantly get questioned over it). I definitely understand the frustration. No one has the right to label you something you're not. That's yours and yours alone. So yeah, cheers on the debate. I'm actually hoping we get more participation on this thread as I would like to hear as many perspectives as possible. Feel free to check my work on the Kravitz M. posts, I took a thorough look at the history throughout the 70s, and I tackle the 80s tomorrow. (maybe some of the 90s as well since the 80s section is a little short). I would appreciate your input.

plant-dad Bracelet King	3 years, 5 months ago by plant-dad I see bi as more of an umbrella term. To me, it means liking more than one gender (it could be boys and girls, boys and enbys, girls, enbys, and boys, etc.) but as long as you are attracted to more than one. Pan and Omni are just more specific labels that someone could use for themself. A similar thing could be the term “sapphic”. At its core, it means female identified people (and sometimes non-binary people use this label) that are attracted to other females. It encompasses all wlw people whether they’re a lesbian, bisexual, etc. In my opinion, I think the entire debate about pan people being biphobic and bisexuals being transphobic is stupid. At the end of the day, people are just using labels that they feel comfortable with and you can’t tell them what they are. If it’s not hurting anyone, it’s really not anyone’s business. Also, I’m open to all responses to my comment.
roundcat Professional	3 years, 5 months ago by roundcat I just finished going through Kravitz M.'s 80s examples (at least the ones I could access) and these are the results of my research: (1982: Rita Mae Brown says she was kicked out of her university for her “pansexuality,” as she put it. “I was open to loving anybody… ‘I don’t care if I fall in love with a black or a white or a man or a woman or an old or young person. I just care that they have a good heart…’”) Article: The Unthinkable Rita Mae Brown Spreads Around a Little 'southern Discomfort' Publication: People Notes: The article is a biographical recollection of Rita Mae Brown, a proliffic feminist author during the 1980s. The quote actually comes from an event that happens to her in 1963 (predating the 1970s examples that Kravitz M. gives.) According to the author, Rita Mae got kicked out of the University of Florida for agitating for greater racial intergration, and the school threw her out for her "Pansexuality". It's a little hard to tell if this is the term she uses or if this is the term the school used in her expultion, but the full quote by Rita Mae is ["I was open to loving anybody.” An officer of her sorority called her in and said, “White ladies aren’t seen with ‘redacted’ Would you want to marry one?” Rita Mae recalls her angry reply: ” ‘I don’t care if I fall in love with a black or a white or a man or a woman or an old or young person. I just care that they have a good heart.’ Within an hour I was in the dean’s office being told I was a neurotic and a lesbian and demented. That was it. I was out. My world fell apart.] While she bring up age in her statement, it seems the main sticking point over why she was kicked out was over her queerness and her racial acceptance. It's also worth noting that while Rita Mae was an earlier proponent of Lesbian liberation, often clashing with early gay liberation organization who were not interested in including Lesbian liberation, she doesn't seem to consider herself as Pansexual, Bisexual, at least under those labels. She is quoted saying in a 2008 times article: " I don't believe in straight or gay. I really don't. I think we're all degrees of bisexual. There may be a few people on the extreme if it's a bell curve who really truly are gay or really truly are straight. Because nobody had ever said these things and used their real name, I suddenly became the only lesbian in America. It was hysterical. It was a misnomer, but it's okay. It was a fight worth fighting." She's also quoted in a 2015 Washington Post Article saying: "I love language, I love literature, I love history, and I'm not even remotely interested in being gay. I find that one of those completely useless and confining categories. Those are definitions from our oppressors, if you will. I would use them warily. I would certainly not define myself — ever — in the terms of my oppressor. If you accept these terms, you're now lumped in a group. Now, you may need to be lumped in a group politically in order to fight that oppression; I understand that, but I don't accept it." So it seems like she doesn't consider herself at least to be LBGT+ since she believes everyone is bisexual to a certain degree , and even if she did, she would not feel comfortable using a label to describe her sexuality. (These quotes were found on her wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rita_Mae_Brown) (Late-1980s*: “Coming out as bisexual in the late 80s, when I first came across the label pansexual it didn’t involve any kind of gender nuance: it was how someone explained their bisexuality feeling interwoven with their Pagan beliefs.”) Article: Bi or Pan Publication: Bi Community News This article interviews 3 people, 2 Bisexual and 1 Pansexual, on their history and experiece with the term pansexual. This quote is from a 2015 article given by an interviewee named Jen, who recounts their experience with the term, and their point of view on the Bi vs. Pan debate. Based on Kravitz M.'s intent: to show the problematic history with the Pansexual label and its meaning, He uses Jen's opening statement, which lacks elaboration outside the statement used in the interview. One might think based on Jen's statement that the term had a common association with Paganism within the community around the time they came out. But given the prior examples Kravitz M. provides earlier in the article, we see that the definition was not strictly linked with Paganism neither within the LGBTQ+ community or among cisgender heterosexuals. And even if it was the case, Paganism is a very broad term listing various cultural and religious experiences, often associated with Pre-Christain Europe and various modern movements. It's too broad of term to link what negative conogtation Pansexualism could have by being linked to Paganism. If the speaker went into more detail into what elements it was associated with, or with what kind of Paganism, it would be much easier to draw conclusions from this association. (1986: “Colette (1873–1954) possessed pansexual appetites, failing to discriminate between male and female, old and young, so long as the flesh moved her.” Publication: The New York Times) I actually could not access this article as it is paywalled off by the NYT's subscription service, thus inaccessible to non-subscribers. I will attempt to come back to this once I have access to the article. Final thoughts: I'm surprised that there were not more example's provided for the 1980s given how eventful of a time period it was for the LGBTQ+ community. To be fair though, given the cultural landscape in the English speaking world at the time, it was probably harder to find publications or interviews that openly talked about queer identity and culture. Of the examples given though, one was actually from an event that happened in the late 60s over race, and the other was a short one sentence recollection that didn't really provide a lot of context. The articles themselves are definitely worth reading, particularly the Bi Community News Article, where the interviewees talk about their relationship with the bisexual and pansexual labels. One of the interviewees, Sali, makes an exellent point in saying "I have no problem embracing more labels to better describe our attractions and our gender politics. We all have every right to use the labels that fit us. Some people identify as both pan and bi depending on context, but I can’t consider doing this before the implicit and explicit biphobia within the pan community is rejected. If your definition of pansexuality relies on redefining my bisexuality and negating it, I can’t support that. If you need to prove your queer credentials by vehemently clarifying that you’re not bisexual, you’re doing to me exactly what the lesbian and gay community does to both of us." Overall, I didn't find a lot of useful information within the examples provided, and am hoping the imformation within the 90s examples proves to be more fruitful. As mentioned before, feel free to comment on my work, and provide any criticism where it is due. If anyone has access to the last article, please feel free to share, and/or provide your findings on it.
Elise64 Bracelet King	3 years, 5 months ago by Elise64 This is what I read on a website, I can post the link later if anyone wants. “Bisexual means attracted to multiple genders, and pansexual means attracted to all genders. These are different because ‘multiple’ isn’t the same thing as ‘all.’ Let’s say you ask your friends what their favorite colors are. One friend might say, ‘Actually, I like more than one color!’ Another friend might say, ‘I like all colors.’ Now, the first friend might like all colors, but they might not. They might not like khaki or beige. Perhaps they like pastels but not dark colors. This is because ‘all colors’ is, by definition, more than one. However, ‘more than one’ isn’t technically all. Some people feel that pansexual falls into the category of bisexual because bisexual is a broad term that means more than one — but it isn’t the same thing, because ‘all’ isn’t the same as ‘multiple.’” I agree with @allegory, it really just depends on how the people who identify as it define it.

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